Supreme Court -Affirmative Action UnConstitutional !!

what makes you think they werent there in some way shape or form the whole time?

what makes you think they werent there in some way shape or form the whole time?

Good point.

ACLU, need to be close down for all they have is idiots suing for the wrong reason.

ACLU, need to be close down for all they have is idiots suing for the wrong reason

The NAACP and all the other racist organizations of the like should be shut down for making continuous racist accusations where race isn't a factor.

If by "organizations of the like" you mean Fox and Breitbart and the Tea Party, I would have to agree.

If by "organizations of the like" you mean Fox and Breitbart and the Tea Party, I would have to agree.

No, I meant the organizations I mentioned.

I agree 100% with the Supreme Court on this

As do I. Affirmative Action did help in a few areas but for the most part there were alot of incompetent people promoted for something they didn't do.

As do I. Affirmative Action did help in a few areas but for the most part there were alot of incompetent people promoted for something they didn't do.

I wouldn't go that far

It did help in establishing that you cannot discriminate against someone because of race. Where it went bad is where you are given a mandate to hire X amount of X employees

Example:

You are a business owner and you have 20 positions open. You are told you can only hire 5 whites and the rest have to be minorities. You have 5 whites apply and hired but only 7 minorities. What are you supposed to do with the other 8 positions? What if you have more whites apply but no more minorities?

That is where we start running into issues

And yet the 'most competant' person the right could find got his ass handed to him in highest number of voters (not electorate) in 20 years.

2008 Obama 69,456,897

McCain 59,934,814

(we don't even need to discuss 2000-2004 electionsa)

1996 Clinton 47,401,185

Dole 39,197,469

1992 Clinton 44,909,806

Bush 39,104,550

1988 Bush 48,886,557

Dukakis 41,809,476

Perhaps the right should stop running RINOs...except that then you'd never win the moderate/independent vote with what your base has been appealing to as of late.

"Right to the White House."

Uh, Presidents are elected, not promoted. But don't let reality get in the way of your bigotry.

1) Affirmative Action only provides the disadvantaged with an opportunity to succeed -- it is still up to the individual to make the most of the opportunity, i.e., the actual success is earned.

2) In the minds of many right wingers, Michelle and Barack Obama, Sonya Sotomayor, and just about every other left-of-center minority must have attained their academic and professional successes by means of handouts and special favors, because it certainly could not have been the result of hard work and innate intelligence.

Pull up your pants -- your bigotry is showing ... yet again.

Can anyone tell me what the grades were for President Obama ? I still wonder .... Why does the President of the United States CHOSE to keep his collage grades SECRET!

Why is the information about how and by who his education was payed for a SECRET!

Didn't some people just get in trouble for peeking into that issue?

Just things that make you go Hummm!

I have both his books but can't read his collage papers... Michele's was there and then gone...go figure!

Obama is to scared for the World to see even a test score of his at any of the colleges he attended. Must be pretty damn embarrassed or.....

Garrison, care to provide a little proof for your rant, sorry, but I've heard Obama speak and answer questions many times without his teleprompter, he impressed me as a very intelligent man. The man graduated magna cum laude (with great honor) from the highest rated law school in the nation. Magna cum laude basically means that he graduated in the top 10% of his class. He was selected as an editor of the Harvard Law Review at the end of his first year, and president of the journal in his second year. Sorry, but your affirmative action claim is just BS. I've heard many of his Harvard classmates talk about him, I don't know where you get your information, but you might try some other sites other than right wing crap.

Bill Ayers was never an Obama handler, do you people just make up this crap as you go along. Bill Ayers was a professor at the University of Chicago, Obama also worked at the U of C, they both were appointed to a board that worked on different approaches to education, end of story.

Talk about fraud, your whole comment is full of unprovable BS.

How about this or this?? LOL. Try and decipher the nonsense if you can.

"I can't hear myself".. AKA I can't hear the @!$%# pumped into my ear piece or teleprompter so I don't WTF I'm talking about. Deer in the head lights.

Garrison-I doubt the liberals here will invite you to their Christmas party this year. How dare you expect someone to advance based on individual performance. That idea just won't do.

Garrison, did you ever look to see how many primaries were held:

Delegates from forty-eight US states, the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico had a single vote each, while delegates from American Samoa, the Virgin Islands, Guam and Democrats Abroad, as well as the states of Florida and Michigan, which contravened the schedule, had half a vote each.

That's what Obama was talking about when he said 57 states.

I have not. I don't imagine it takes much.

These are your responses, I suppose you know a lot people who have graduated from Harvard law school magna cum laude. He's not hiding anything, sorry Garrison but he doesn't have to show anyone his thesis or his grades, why should he have to prove anything to you. The fact that he graduated at the top of his class says that he must of gotten good grades.

Bill Ayers holds obama's strings.

And GWB is a communist, I've got as much proof for my claim as you do for yours. So just stop spreading the BS.

I support the elected President of the United States, since the man is not a fraud, why do I have to provide papers.

That's what Obama was talking about when he said 57 states.

WRONG ... he meant to say 47 .... watch the video ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpGH02DtIws

That's what Obama was talking about when he said 57 states.

Please don't defend the indefensible!

Does not he makes it very clear saying, he had been to 57 states, has one more to go to and can't go to 2 others....Ding Ding Ding that would make 50 ... You wasted your and my time with the fabricated Guam crap!

He screwed up and said 57 and meant to say 47...

"but he doesn't have to show anyone his thesis or his grades, why should he have to prove anything to you.

Could you get a job with that attitude...I don't have to show you my collage transcripts ...you just trust me .....I did great! Because I said so , But hey it worked! That one time! B.S. And if he did so well why would he not want to put it out there to give the kids of the country something to strive for? Funny you voted for him to be President of the United States with a trust me ...Yet you want PROOF... from people on the vine? Now that makes all the sense in the world!

"since the man is not a fraud, why do I have to provide papers.

For the same reason you ask everyone on the vine to provide proof that what they say is true... We all want to make a statement of fact we have to provide a source or its just opinion.
I have heard President Obama is the most intelligent president ever! With No facts to back that opinion... No record of IQ or collage transcripts...
I think I have a higher IQ and got better grades in collage.
Prove me wrong!

Jim, this statement alone proves your intelligence "Does not he makes it very clear saying," what the hell does that mean. Sorry, I really don't care if you buy my primary explanation, but even if he "screwed up" and he meant to say "47 states" who cares, I'm pretty sure Obama knows there is only 50 states. After eight years of Bush butchering the English language, we have to hear conservatives say "57 states, hahaha" get over it. Again, the man graduated magna cum laude (top 10%) of his class from Harvard law school. I'm sorry Jim, but you couldn't get in to Harvard law school, neither could I, so I don't care what grades you got in college, you are not in the same league as President Obama. I'm sure if Obama was applying for a job he would allow his future employer access to his college transcripts. However, he doesn't have to prove anything to me, his degree from the highest rated law school in the country is all the proof I need.

I'm sure if Obama was applying for a job he would allow his future employer access to his college transcripts.

So you saying applying for a job he would release his transcripts, but running for PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.. he can keep them secret? Now that is amazing!

We the American people were not just his future employers...WE ARE HIS PRESENT EMPLOYER...Are we not? The President does WORK for he American people does he not?

rickg I really would like an answer to this one!

Wow. How did we devolve into the birther thing?

I am curious of that as well

Wow. How did we devolve into the birther thing

How does college transcripts have anything to do with birth?

"How does college transcripts have anything to do with birth?

Never answered..... and rickg ...never came back to reply!
Its amazing no one will speak about what we DON'T KNOW about our president.
The same things we have always known about previous presidents, yet this one is free from being questioned. Political Correctness?

Speaking of crazy did you hear about the Teamster who lost his job at a panel with his Local Union President and members from the company, pulled out a gun shot 8 dead and them himself later? Being are going postal literally in these times. People are at wits end. Sad.

In that guy's case...half wit ends.

If you want to leave then please do.

Never mind that you know right well that at the moment, you will find no credible source stating Thornton's religion. You just choose to stir up anti-Muslim sentiment simply because you think he has a "Muslim-sounding name?" Care to explain why?

Or, better yet, since you want to trot out the tired "Muslims=Terrorists" tripe, care to explain the actions of Joseph Stack? Byron Williams? Scott Roeder? James Wenneker von Brunn?

It's OK, I'll wait.

Still waiting...oh, and feel free to add the Hutaree militia to that list.

then there should be no questions on any application regarding one's race or ethnic identity.

Little Sure Shot, yes I agree with you, this country should never have had 90 years of Jim Crow, where no matter how qualified a black person was the white man always got the job. You people amaze me on your ability to forget the past, affirmative action was an attempt to level the playing field after decades of legalized discrimination. I've heard white people whining every day as soon as affirmative action was initiated "it's not fair" they cry, funny when it was the black people getting shut out most of them thought it was just fine.

Garrison, Jim Crow came after slavery, there's a lot of black and white people alive today that remember the legalized discrimination of Jim Crow. You only have to be sixty years old to have lived during Jim Crow. Pick up a history book and research how blacks were treated in this country from 1865-1965. I guess I was right, it's amazing how short peoples memories are.

Rick,

There was no need for Affirmative Action, as the Civil Rights Act of 1964 made it illegal to discriminate based on color, religion, sex, etc.

Also Affirmative Action only applied to government agencies, not that it should have because once again Title VII of the CRA made it illegal to discriminate.

Garrison, you have no idea of what you speak. My parents and I as a baby sat in the back of the bus, went through the back door to see the white docs after they had seen all of the white patients and that was in the 50's my friend. I tire of hearing you and your ilk stating Jim Crow did not affect anyone alive today. Ever hear of discriminatory housing practices? It was just not about lynching friend.

rickg, you hit the nail on the head. Folks have very short memories. As long as a certain segment of the population was holding the power, it was all fine. Now the constant whining that the white man is getting the short end of the stick is tiring. Affirmative action, NAACP, BET, on and on and on.

Darth, yes the civil rights act did make it illegal to discriminate. However, generations of black people were devastated by Jim Crow. Think of it this way, if someone discriminated against you for 30 years of your life, poor schools, no job experience, then they said OK were not going to discriminate anymore. What chance do you think you would have against someone who had the best schools and good job experience.

Here I'll use a Garrison sports example: A white man and a black man are running a four lap race, you let the white man start the race, but you tell the black man he must stay at the starting line (Jim Crow), after the white man has completed two laps you tell the black man he can start running (CRA). Does the black man really have a chance to catch up? What affirmative action is designed to do is give the black man an advantage for a while to try to make up for the disadvantage he had from the beginning.

rick ...

A white man and a black man are running a four lap race, you let the white man start the race, but you tell the black man he must stay at the starting line (Jim Crow), after the white man has completed two laps you tell the black man he can start running (CRA).

OK ...now they run the race again and after making everything fair, under you theory we now give the black man a 2 lap head start?

So equality really was not the goal restitution is the goal? Because if you want equality then both men would start at the same time, would they not!

So "content of character" is not the most important thing...is it really color of skin?

Jim, what the heck are you talking about, you can't give one group an advantage for 100 years and then say OK everything is equal. The answer to my analogy is that we continue the race, but we hold up the white guy until the black guy catches up, then everything is equal to the end of the race. Why would we start the race over, the white man still has all the advantages of education and wealth accumulation, it still isn't equal.

And I can tell you that when CRA was passed in 1964 discrimination didn't just end at that moment, it continued for many years and is still alive today. During those 100 years the white people in this country were able to accumulate much of the wealth in this country and the black race still is no where near catching up. Sorry, but without affirmative action the white race would continue with their advantage forever. "Content of character" was the goal MLK eventually wanted to achieve, but he knew that affirmative action would be necessary to achieve that goal. Unfortunately, it has always been about the color of someones skin when you look at the history of racism in this country.

Excellent response rickg. Affirmative Action was truly about equality in the long term. Whites will never understand that.

Yes I can if you want EQUALITY... Or do you really want REPARATIONS !

rick you have to chose... do you just want an equal chance or do you think you need a head start? You Chose and just say it! EQUAL ... means EQUAL.. if blacks are to get an advantage then it can't be equal now can it?

"black race still is no where near catching up. Sorry, but without affirmative action the white race would continue with their advantage forever.

We have a black man as the President of the United States of America...
Just how does it get more fair? Last time I looked this country was still around 70% white so a whole bunch of white folk voted for the black guy and made him President ....did they not?

if blacks are to get an advantage then it can't be equal now can it?

I don't think you can understand. Whites already have an advantage. Isn't that unfair? Or is okay for a race to have an advantage if it is whites that receive it? Giving minorities an advantage levels the "playing field", it helps them achieve equality with those who are currently benefiting from unfair advantages. Call it "reparations" if you want, however Affirmative Action is the right thing.

Jim, if the election of Obama proves that racism is over, than why do I hear "affirmative action president," as if he didn't work and campaign hard to become president. Somehow people cannot give a black man credit for acheiving an historic accomplishment. It's easier for people with racist views to dismiss the election of Obama as a "affirmative action president" than admit the man was the best candidate for the job. You comment on this seed "how can this country be racist, we elected a black president", then you turn around and say "but he didn't deserve it."

"So equality really was not the goal restitution is the goal? Because if you want equality then both men would start at the same time, would they not!"

Well, that wouldn't be fair either! All things being equal blacks would win. If it weren't for all the roadblocks, racism and discrimination, attacks and wars and disruptions of black civilization and progress...in other words, if you don't proactively prevent black progress it would exceed all others.

Why else is it so important to keep the systematic prevention measures in place?

If blacks had been allowed to go to schools of higher learning.

If blacks had been allowed to obtain certifications and licenses.

If blacks had been allowed to become doctors, lawyers, scientists and educators.

Just like in ancient Egypt, the entire world would flock to their institutions. That's the story untold in the historical mystery of black civilization...do I need to prove that? Anyone? Anyone?

Just like in ancient Egypt, the entire world would flock to their institutions. That's the story untold in the historical mystery of black civilization...do I need to prove that? Anyone? Anyone?

That's been proven with science and modern intelligence that "theory" is complete bull@!$%#. Nice try. Lol. Even new DNA evidence and archeological evidence proves the rulers of Egypt were White / Tan with genetic roots most likely from the Isreali region of the World or Southern Europe. Sorry.. but the rulers and brains of Egypt as you claim in the theory your spouting which is old isn't true. I guess you'll have to dig even harder for another example that is credible. Any others you got??

"Even new DNA evidence and archeological evidence proves the rulers of Egypt were White / Tan with genetic roots most likely from the Isreali region of the World or Southern Europe."

LOL...NOT! That the ancient Egyptians were Hamitic/Black is beyond dispute. The Ethiopian and Nubian origins of Nile Valley civilization is clear. All one need examine is their Gods, whose roots are found in Nubia and Ethiopia, not in Israel or Europe or Asia, to know who founded Egypt.

The DNA that has been made known to the world is very deceiving! One must remember that it was during the first 4 dynasties that Egypt was founded, all the pyramids and the main temples were built, and that original culture and liturgy lasted throughout all seceding dynasties. So, please show me ANY DNA studies of Egyptians from the 1st - 4th dynasty that were NOT African/Black/Nubian/Ethiopia...there is none. Sorry.

Secondly, all one need do is look at the nature of Egyptian culture, the "spirituality" of their culture and one immediately knows they were black people!

Lastly, exactly what "whites" were living in southern Europe in 4,000-3,000BC? And we need not even discuss "Israel", as it didn't even exist until 1,400 BC...

So, I pose your question back to you!

"I guess you'll have to dig even harder for another example that is credible. Any others you got??"

Simplistic Reality

Here's an emerging research, long overlooked/neglected, that is proving who is responsible for Egyptian culture...check it out. Note that in ancient Nubia, which dates back to 7,000 B.C. (long before Egypt was founded) "Amun" is worshiped, the primary God of Egypt. You also note that there are 3 times as many pyramids in Nubia than in all of Egypt, many dating (again) before Egypt was even founded.

http://www.angelfire.com/oh/AncientKnowledge/NUBIA.html

The point here is that the culture of Egypt arrived from the "south", or further "up" the Nile. Egypt is, however, more an Ethiopian establishment than a Nubian one, but the two people's are "cousins". What we don't have information on, is ancient Ethiopia. My guess is once that work has been completed, the combined research of Ethiopia and Nubia will tell the complete story of ancient Egypt.

You cannot find this type of evidence anywhere north of Egypt (i.e. in Palestine/Israel, Europe or Asia).

Case closed...

Case closed...

Well, that may be overstating things a bit....

Interestingly, don't you know that NO 1st Dynasty mummies have been found? The tombs of the founders of Egyptian civilization remain a mystery. So clearly DNA can't be considered when you don't even have a body!

Furthermore, the Egyptians themselves tell where they came from i.e. "Mountians of the Moon"...which is south of Egypt, not north! Even the Bible makes the connection between Ethiopia and Egypt. Diodorus Siculus, Herodotus, Plato, Pythagorus and other early Greeks tell us who the Egyptians were...but be it the Egyptians themselves, the Bible, men who were witnesses during the time, evidence showing the clear derivation of Egyptian culture, they are also will not be enough or believed.

It's truly amazing that this is even debated? Especially against the backdrop of having NO evidence found north of Egypt that any Europeans or Asians were even civilized in 4,000 - 3,000 B.C.! And if that were true, why would they come to Africa and give the blacks their very best knowledge and wisdom and nothing to their own kind?

Furthermore, for physical reasons whites can't even live for extended periods in areas within the 30th parallel north or south! Nor do they live there today!

The case is closed, all that we have now is an attempt to fool everyone!

The case is closed

Sorry, I have to disagree that the case is closed by any stretch. This is hardly the place to get into it, but there are plenty of valid and competing hypotheses regarding the origins of the Egyptian civilization, including the first dynasty. Not least of these is the Sumerian hypothesis.....

Read this. Are you saying King Tut, Cleopatra, and all the great pharaohs and the height of the Egyptian civilization was all Black people and because of them? Is that what your tying to claim? Egyptian history is a big fascination of me, so this is a good topic. Platyoe so we don't de-reail the seed.. perhaps you can make an article about this that we all could discuss furthermore on. Synthesis is pretty savvy in this area from what I've seen..

Perhaps you can make an article about this that we all could discuss furthermore on.

I think this is a great idea.

Simplistic Reality and Synthesis...yes, I agree. I'll put something up on this in the morning. I will make just a few comments now, but look forward to a more indepth discussion in this new Seed.

I think the greatest confusion created when discussing ancient Egypt is the "timeline". One must remember that at Egypt's founding, which authorities date anywhere from 4000 BC to 3250 BC as the 1st Dynasty), Egypt emerges "Full Grown", they already HAD their knowledge of science, religion and culture. Which implies that there was a period previous to the 1st Dynasty where all this knowledge and wisdom was first conceived and developed. Throughout the remaining 30+ dynasties of Egypt they maintained a "consistent liturgy" or religious idea. The racial mix changed over time, but it's proven that the 1st through 4th Dynasty's were "pure", having no "racial mixture", from Semitic or European peoples....they were Africanic.

We'll dispel the racist myth that every black African has this stereotypical "Negroid" presentation, the "nappy head", "broad nosed", "thick lipped" type. There are several phenotypes of pure black African. Just because most slaves were taken from West Africa, where this particular phenotype was predominate, doesn't separate the Nubian or Ethiopian "curly hair", "full lips", from their African heritage.

In my Seed I will try to provide you with information that shows a previous "high civilization" that existed ONLY in Africa, primarily in Ethiopia and Nubia, but also in South Africa (based upon archaeological finds). We can also look at West Africa, although due to the land, or environment, and lack of study, lies hidden ancient remains of "high civilization".

The key point will be shown that Africans had created and built "high civilization" and due to "spiritual/religious" reasons decided to abandon "material pursuits", even as they do to this day.

The key thing will be to understand that the meaning of "high civilization", particularly the term "civilization" has equally as much, if not more to do with "social" or human conduct as it does with "technology". The European focus seems to say "high civilization" is primarily a matter of "technology" and/or "tool making". Whereas we must also consider the "hearts of men", how we treat one another vs the "barbarian". Barbarians CAN develop technology and "tools", but that doesn't make them "highly civilized" people (i.e. Neaderthal)! Civilized, civil, has to do with "courtesy" and "etiquette", social "standards", and LAWS, and NOT so much a people's "technology". Civilization is not a factor of how refined one can make war, but how one can create peace and harmony. I will show how Africans, and in particular the Egyptians (via Ethiopia) developed true civilization from the early beginnings of modern humanity.

I will expect, however, that you come armed with evidence showing that "high civilization" was developed and spread by other ancient peoples! If all you care to do is deny and reject what I provide, while not providing ANY alternative evidence...then we REALLY don't need to have this discussion.

AGREED?

I will expect, however, that you come armed with evidence showing that "high civilization" was developed and spread by other ancient peoples! If all you care to do is deny and reject what I provide, while not providing ANY alternative evidence...then we REALLY don't need to have this discussion.

If you have a look at my column, I think you'll conclude that deny and reject is not my style. And nor is it SR's approach.

We should be good.

Agreed. I'll keep a look out for the discussion.

Synthesis and SR...here we go!

http://playtoe.newsvine.com/_news/2010/08/07/4843649-the-african-origin-of-egyptian-civilization

Why does anyone care about the racial origins of the Egyptians? Why does it hold any meaning to anyone? It has no real importance when considering that the ancient Egyptians built a unique and independent civilization that built advanced technology for their time and monuments that fascinate even modern anthropologists and historians. Their racial ancestry is not important unless you feel that it allows you to boast about your own race in some way; if that is the case, then that is pathetic.

"Their racial ancestry is not important unless you feel that it allows you to boast about your own race in some way; if that is the case, then that is pathetic."

Exactly! Surely, the Egyptians HAD a race/skin color and they had an "origin", be it from the north or south, east or west...they did not originate there according to geology. So, whether they were black, white, brown or mixed shouldn't matter. But, for some reason, inspite of all evidence to the contrary some want to claim that Egypt was founded, influenced and made great by Caucasians or Arabs or Asians, and that "black/Africans" COULD NOT have done it!

I'm sure that if your ancestors were responsible for something great, that even you would be proud to know and share this with not only your children but anyone else that wanted to know. Wouldn't it be a shame if your neighbor tried to claim that it was HIS ancestor that did it? Would you not work to reclaim your families heritage and honor? Is it really just as simple as "something to boast about"?

You should ask, also, why are others trying to claim a heritage that is not their own? And my seed will try to determine who is right and who is wrong! If it doesn't matter to you, you know what to do! (with all respect!)

Exactly! Surely, the Egyptians HAD a race/skin color and they had an "origin"

Again, why does it matter? The ancient Egyptians were their own people with their own legacy and this nonsensical bickering on racial legacy only undermines their history and the legacy through their technology and culture.

and that "black/Africans" COULD NOT have done it!

They obviously had a significant role but the ancient Egyptians were their own race and their own people; They built their world by themselves.

Wouldn't it be a shame if your neighbor tried to claim that it was HIS ancestor that did it?

I wouldn't care less.

Is it really just as simple as "something to boast about"?

Yes. It really is.

why are others trying to claim a heritage that is not their own?

The legacy of the ancient Egyptians belong to the ancient Egyptians alone and their descendants.

If it doesn't matter to you, you know what to do!

You shouldn't disrespect an ancient culture. They were not Africans, Europeans or Asians. They were Egyptians and that is the only thing that matters.

"The legacy of the ancient Egyptians belong to the ancient Egyptians alone and their descendants."

Wrong! Nor would the Egyptians agree with you. The Egyptians invited peoples from all nations to partake of their wisdom and knowledge and gave each nation that came something to take back home to their people. The Buddhist, the Chinese ICHING, the TAO, cultures of India, the Greeks, the Christian bible, the Dogon of West Africa, the Mayan civilization and many others now gone carry on the legacy of Egypt. The Washington Monument is an Egyptian obelisk, and one sits in front of the Vatican.

Egypt isn't just your "run of the mill" civilization! It is this earth's "premiere" civilization! And it has infinite significance to all of us, whether we know it or not.

"They were not Africans, Europeans or Asians. They were Egyptians and that is the only thing that matters."

Don't be silly. They were SURELY Africans...as much as you and I are Americans, though we hail from different states. Egypt is IN Africa, not Europe or Asia.

Anyway, this is not the Seed for this topic...which is why I, Synthesis and SR agreed to start another...see you there, if you care to join.

Why does anyone care about the racial origins of the Egyptians?

Personally, the movements, origins and development of ancient civilizations is simply a hobby of mine. These things are all much more complex than we have been led to believe by pop science, and it represents an interesting set of riddles to be unravelled.

Nothing much wrong with that, imho.

Well said, Synthesis!

The history is a hobby, but the religious science is part of my lifestyle and meditations. And it's the "complex" nature of Egyptian belief systems (i.e. spiritual enlightenment" that I seek to understand.

But, I like the history because it often leads me to new books, people and information that helps me along my path. I would never have read Plato had I not known the relationship he had with Egypt! My name is phonetically from him, but my name has a meaning and is therefore an Africanic tradition...and Afro/Euro-Centric thing!

I like the history because it often leads me to new books, people and information that helps me along my path.

I have certainly found this to be true.....

46-years of unConstitutional Race-gender based discrimination of White Men.

The whites need to let other Americans catch up with their wealth and privilege. It may not seem fair to you but the treatment towards minorities and women was not very fair for most of our history. The whites need to stop whining and allow for progress to move forward but they are too selfish to understand.

What advantages do Whites really have?

White institutionalized racism that now has no counter force without Affirmative Action.

I think you're afraid to admit that White Men do a better job, across the board, and that others simply can't match them unless the rules are bent in their favor.

I think white men are afraid of equality and losing their dominance they earned though racism and violence.

NON-WHITES NEED TO EARN IT ON THEIR OWN!

They do but many are not given enough opportunities to earn success.

The whites need to let other Americans catch up with their wealth and privilege.

Let them catch-up?

How the hell do I go about that? Slow down?

What's stopping anyone from catching-up with me? Me?

My "wealth and privilege"? Who thinks in those ridiculous terms?

What utter and complete bull@!$%#!!

Whites don't want to see their hard work turned into an African/Asian/Middle Eastern ( or anywhere White Man does not hold sway) Paradise.

So you are confirming that whites do not want equality? I knew it.

Women, Blacks and other "minorities" all learn the same MATH & SCIENCE as those pesky White Men.

I don't think it is a coincidence that the whites typically go to better schools. Even that is white institutional racism.

Do keep in mind, White Men are the World's greatest minority group.

White men aren't the greatest anything. They are equal to other groups. They sure are arrogant though.

How the hell do I go about that? Slow down?

How about not removing programs that try to help their situation?

I am detracking this thread, because I have come to the conclusion that the racist rhetoric in the U.S. had already reached a nadir, and I really have to leave before the Uncivil Rights activists here make me believe that race relations are going to further deteriorate.

Nostalgia for the antebellum. Jesus.

Sorry that's NOT EQUALITY.

Yes it is. Whites had an advantage for over 150 years; that kind of unbalance needs programs like A.A. to give minorities necessary advantages to fix the unbalance and to create true equality in the long run.

Marxists

Again, where is this communist spin coming from? This is about inequality about race, not economic philosophies.

Non-Whites had the advantage for 1000s of years

Whites have dominated non-whites for many hundreds of years. Before that, non-whites did not dominate anyone. They lived separately from the whites in Europe.

No more free rides for bitter, second-rate losers.

It is not a free ride. It is equality that tries to account for all the inequalities the whites have created against minorities. I don't think you are getting it.

did you not realize your La Raza tutors are all COMMUNISTS?

I actually approve of communism but I don't think that communism has anything to do with my posts here. I want to see the end of white dominance in this nation and the end of white institutional racism. Affirmative Action will always be a good programs that helps people. People most effected by discrimination and negative emotions.

Garrison

"how much longer do Blacks need a hand-out?" (#5.35)

Forgive me, but what "hand-out" was that? I don't remember ever in American history that blacks received any "hand-out"...you like the "free land" hand-outs to whites? Or, the any number of advantages given to whites in regard to education, jobs, business, etc.? What do you claim were "hand-outs" given to blacks that would equal or balance the score?

How about we correct both statements with this concept.

How much longer do we continue to give out any hand outs to anyone? Why is this a back and forth about the color of skin. Hand outs are bad period. They never fix the problem and only create dependency.

Whites perform better than Blacks

That is not true. Minorities actually perform slightly better but some are denied opportunities by the whites.

Race & Gender based "affirmative action" programs are unConstitutional. Period.

It is constitutional if its purpose is to enforce equality and the civil rights act from the damaging effects of white institutional racism.

Prove your racist lie.

After you prove yours.

You must be shocked by Race-relations when a Black Man can get on tv and rail against "TYPICAL WHITE PEOPLE" without any criticism from the Liberal Left.

The president had a point. Typical whites want to dominate their fellow citizens. That is simply fact. They don't want equality and the end of A.A. proves this.

Talk about RACIST RHETORIC!

Any racism is coming from the whites that want Affirmative Action to end.

Here's the thing comrade, I didn't lie nor post anything racist. You did.

I did not say one racist thing. I will not say if you did because that would violate the CoH but your rhetoric is not very nice. You refuse to recognize the incredible unfairness that minorities have suffered. A.A. existed to try to remedy those unfair things.

they wouldn't need Affirmative Actions programs or reduced qualification standards to allow women & minorities' "equality" in education & employment; they'd perform to the same standard naturally.

Their skin color alone was affirmative action. They used and benefited from laws that discriminated from minorities for decades. They were not better then and they are not better now.

You are an RACIST BIGOT, LIKE OBAMA.

Stop violating the CoH. You are wrong though. Obama is not a bigot. He is a good president with strong morals.

You labelled White Americans as Racial Supremacists,

I was only describing those people that oppose A.A. because of racial reasons. I did not say anything racist about anyone.

You labelled White Americans as Racial Supremacists,

And you continue to say that minorities are inferior to whites.

There was never higher standards, only discrimination against minorities so they could never get employed anywhere. Minorities and women should be advanced. What is wrong with that?!

Yes, by merit alone. What is wrong with that, comrade?

Nothing. Unfortunately minorities have historically never been treated fairly in the past. Discrimination still existed with Affirmative Action in place, now discrimination can only flourish now.

There were STANDARDS WOMEN & MINORITIES COULD NOT COMPETE WITHIN.

It was only discrimination. Minorities were not even allowed to compete fairly against the whites. It was not fair. Now they need help and the whites only have themselves to blame.

So we should coddle the minorities and constantly remind them that they are different and "special"? (Like we do with slow children and pets.) We should constantly point out the fact they have a different skin coloring or nothing hanging in between their legs?

Affirmative Action just reinforces the idea that the only reason you have your job is because of your skin color. No one should live like that.

No one should live like that.

You are right but the concept of skin color working against people was used against minorities for many years. Until true equality can exist, I would believe that Affirmative Action is still necessary.

YAWN. White Men are the largest Minority.

Yet they act like the majority. See the problem here?

Minorities "still don't compete "fairly" against White males.

Oh, poor white males! Let's act like they have been oppressed for the last 150 years! Minorities don't know what they are talking about!

In India they have a similar program to our Affirmative Action program. Most people in India want to get rid of stupid program. While because the program mandates the hiring of member of what is generally known as the untouchable class(a form of oppression that has been going on for the last couple thousand of years by the way), it also constantly reminds people they are the descendants of pig farmers, hat makers, and leather tanners(and beggars, thieves, disgraced royalty...blah, blah, blah). That sort of reminder isn't good and helps prevent progress.

The sad fact is you're born, you use what you got and try to make the best future you can. Everything you earn is a credit to yourself and everything you're given becomes meaningless. To have your career be meaningless because it was given to you based on your skin color, well sort of invalidates your life.

.they can't compete now because someone was oppressed 150-years ago

Oppression was still around 50 years ago. It is still here today. The whites refuse to recognize it though; they will always think that everything is perfect. Minorities know better.

YAWN II

You can yawn all day if you want but you are still wrong. Affirmative Action was right.

Wrong for White Men

Why do you support white men only? Affirmative Action would help more people find equality with the whites. That was its purpose.

White Men are the only group whose Rights are infringed upon by unConstitutional Affirmative Action programs

Even if you are right, it doesn't make Affirmative Action wrong. The purpose of Affirmative Action was to undue the unbalance of centuries of discrimination caused by the white men. How do you balance a weight? By adding weight to the other side to create equal weight on both sides.

it doesn't exist, nor should it

You are finally saying that minorities should not be treated equal to whites. I knew that was your intention from the beginning.

Equality is a myth

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."

If you don't remember, that was written in the Declaration of Independence. Equality is not a myth; it is a core American value.

THE WORLD DOESN'T OWE YOU A LIVING.

The world is not important; our nation is and it should create equality for Americans. Remember the balance analogy? Please read it again. The whites will have to be held back but it is not too important because their successes were built on discrimination and racism.

you'll note they don't say "ALL MEN WERE CREATED TO BE EQUAL". Funny, eh?

That is what the statement means.

You're a Communist, and therefore an atheist, who has endowed you with any Rights?

I only approve of some communist ideals. The government gave me my rights. Not some fictional being.

the Pursuit of Happiness...pursuit...certainly doesn't insinuate any type of FORCED EQUALITY.

The pursuit of happiness should be an equal opportunity concept. Affirmative Action helped to fulfill that promise.

Don't you think that to really achieve "equality" Whites should be denied the vote for say 87-years, to make things fair?

There is no equality discrepancies with voting. No point in removing the whites' right to vote. There are such inequality in other ways though. That is why minorities and women needed Affirmative Action to help them overcome what the whites did to them. It may be "payback" but it is the right thing.

Not for White Men, their American Dream is held back because of minorities can't measure up

That is not correct. Minorities have equal ability to the whites. They were simply not given the chance to prove their worth in our society. Whites are not better then minorities. Men are not better then women. All are equal.

Polka when you say minority you seem to mean some weak and easily bossed around. You are forgetting that Romans were ethnically a minority in their own Empire, the Mongols conquered more territory than any other group yet were a small minority of the world's population, The Dutch are a minority in Europe yet established a world wide empire, the white British majority ruled India(a land with a population several times larger than that of the British Isles), and let us not forget how minorities have defeated Russia's military might.

It seems to me it doesn't matter if your part of a minority, it seems that it doesn't matter what color your skin is, it seems to me that it doesn't matter your origins. What it looks like to me is that you get what you take, what you can earn, and what you are worth.

It doesn't matter your skin color; if you got the brains you'll succeed, if you don't you fail. Aye some may try to make it harder for you to succeed, but once again if you're smart enough and determined enough you'll make it. Aye the system should be fair, and it can't be with Affirmative Action in place, because all you're doing is taking one group and putting them on top of the pile instead of the other group.

It doesn't matter your skin color; if you got the brains you'll succeed, if you don't you fail. Aye some may try to make it harder for you to succeed, but once again if you're smart enough and determined enough you'll make it

That is how it should be. Equality.

Polka...you're doing a great job.

"YAWN. White Men are the largest Minority."

This is so true, but is also the source of the struggle, Garrison! White men, had perceived themselves having their backs against the wall for quite a long time...hence the Indo-European aggression ever since. CALM DOWN! Is what I say...the whole world isn't against you, it's just different and inspite of the challenge you need to learn to adjust and get alone a WHOLE lot better. White men WILL NOT take over the world...trust me.

They already have, that's why you're not a savage running naked somewhere, it's also why you're not a slave, chained somewhere, non-Whites hold power.

Umm...you know that the whites were responsible for slavery, right? They essentially conquered or enslaved the world. That is how the whites obtained world power. If white power has not existed, perhaps non-whites would be living in a more enlightened society that would not be poisoned with the influence of the whites.

Get over your HATRED OF WHITES.

We do not hate the whites, we want everyone to be equal to them. A.A. helped with to promote that ideal.

Polka14

you know that the whites were responsible for slavery, right?

That is utter bull@!$%#, and reflects a child-like understanding of the history of mankind regarding slavery.

Come on man, get wise, don't fall into nonsense like that.

Slavery, feel free to read and respond.

Come on man, get wise, don't fall into nonsense like that.

It is not nonsense and I am aware of white slaves but I was trying to say that the whites used slavery to conquer most of the world and Garrison was saying that non-whites would be slaves if whites were not around or some nonsense like that. It makes no sense.

Garrison...you're spin on current reality is hilarious. So you think in the 1600's/1700's at the beginning of slavery ALL Africans were running around "naked" and were "savages"?

Interesting...I suspect you've NEVER heard of the African Moors who dominated Spain from 900AD to 1492AD. And that the first African slaves in America were these black Moors, and were indentured servants actually. I suspect you aren't aware of the Songhai Civilization?

All the stereotypes you've been fed about Africans/blacks...no wonder you have such fantastic ideas.

You're "legends in your own minds"...you need to learn to get along with people and quit the false notion that your "rule" everybody. Just because you create a lot of false beliefs and then believe in them, doesn't make you a ruler over everybody! You think you rule Iran, China, Africa, India? You are hilarious!

Gentlemen...you realize of course that slavery is an institution as old as warfare(so pretty much as old as man). You go out capture a city, kill the men, rape the women and sell the children into slavery. Every culture, every people, and every country has done this(in fact the practice only fell out of favor about a hundred and sixty years ago).

And let us never forget that the vast majority of black slaves were sold to the Europeans by their fellow Africans, who realized they could get more bang for their buck selling prisoners than holding them. In some cases quiet literally...or did no one ever stop to wonder where small African kingdoms were getting their arms.

Again your HATRED OF WHITES is very evident.

I don't hate anyone. I simply recognize the discrimination that the whites have caused to so many different peoples. Affirmative Action was about justice, fairness and restoring equality that should have always existed between the races. The whites do not deserve all the power. They deserve to share it with the other races. It may sound communist but is it right.

Let us not forget we can still go to Africa and buy Negroes from Muslim Slavers, like any time in the last 1300-years.

That has nothing to do with the whites or Affirmative Action.

Polka14

Don't feel too bad, the President of Brazil blamed the economic collapse on "white people with blue eyes", so we all have to deal with some level of prejudice.

And don't get me started about Chavez, another white hating despot!

"And let us never forget that the vast majority of black slaves were sold to the Europeans by their fellow Africans, who realized they could get more bang for their buck selling prisoners than holding them."

False! At FIRST, whites were just indiscriminately raiding villages and capturing and taking people by force. Then, a few African Kings decided it best to give whites who they wanted them to have and stop them from just taking anybody. Just like Europe opened up the jails and let many come to America.

However, it's not true to equate "Africans selling themselves" and the "start of the African slave trade". Africans didn't "start" the slave trade.

Also, there was "servitude" in ancient times, but there was not always "forced slavery". The Indo European invaders basically began that to build their fortresses in foreign lands, where they had no other white populations to do it. "Service/Servitude" was not "forced", it was sometimes to pay off debt, limited in time based upon various reasons. No one was a "slave for life" as we saw in America, or in European history. Consider Joseph in Egypt, who was first sold into slavery and later became an official employed by the Pharoah and given great authority!

I know you want to justify yourself, but history doesn't allow you to use all "servitude" as your justification. You can look only to Europeans themselves for how they conducted "slavery" in the manner that they did.

Your racism has poisoned this seed.

No racism. I simply want to promote the idea that Affirmative Action was just because it fought against white discrimination. You do not want to debate the merits of Affirmative Action though. All you have to say is "You're a racist".

Why did you bring up Whites & Slavery then

I think you brought up the slavery issue. I was only discussing white institutional racism which is something you do not believe exists.

Good job Playtoe. Whites were the ones that started the slave trade.

Whites were the ones that started the slave trade.

whites weren't even the first race of man, how could we have "invented" slavery?

That's silly.

I said they started the slave trade; that refers to the European slave trade that transported African slaves from Africa to the Americas or Europe.

that refers to the European slave trade that transported African slaves from Africa to the Americas or Europe.

Okay, so man began in Africa, and then migrated to Europe, and then after turning white, came back and enslaved the first men?

Am I following this right?

Okay, so man began in Africa, and then migrated to Europe, and then after turning white, came back and enslaved the first men?

No. I am saying that the whites went to Africa and started a slave trade that transported captured Africans to America or Europe.

"Okay, so man began in Africa, and then migrated to Europe, and then after turning white, came back and enslaved the first men?

Am I following this right?"

Yes, we can look at it like that! And what happened to you, my brother, up there in Europe? You've CHANGED! Why you coming back on us so rough and mean, treating us like you do?

Playtoe

Mankind is a strange animal.

;~)

Yes, we are. I think it was the climate that brought on all this aggression, though. America seems to be helping. It's taken some time, but I can see some improvement.

Just skimming through this thread I can tell I want to party with you guys. When I think "slaves" I think Egyptians and the Bible. For the injustice of slavery in the Americas... I would simply say that the principles extolled in the Constitution and Bill of Rights and the enlightenment that they provided towards individual freedom had everything to do with slavery globally being reduced to the human rights atrocity that it is today.

Until we as a nation stood up and spoke out and stepped down and made the moral choice that it was wrong did we begin the process of defeating the institution. We made the issue an issue. For that, we as a Nation of many peoples deserve credit for the hard work and blood sacrifice of making significant change in social behavior.

650,000 Men lost their lives in the process of that change during the Civil War and the number of folks that have lost their lives in that ongoing struggle since couldn't possibly be calculated. Every single day people lose their lives to intra-racial infighting and inter-racial violence. That's the great struggle of America the "Melting Pot". All races are in a pitched but fictitious cultural battle.

The family "USA" is doing what we do and keeping things under wraps. Extremists agitators are the more significant concern. Moderates who are most interested in building a safe and prosperous future for their children and beyond would much prefer that we simplify things but, unfortunately, our Leadership is failing in this regard. Divisiveness and anger seems to be all that Obama offers so far. We'll see.

"WE CAN STILL, in 2010, BUY NEGRO SLAVES IN AFRICA FROM MUSLIM SLAVERS!"

We can buy white, hispanic, asian, black female slaves just about anywhere. We can buy children, girls AND boys, if that's your preference. That's what modern societies across the globe have degenerated to. These are not justifications for continuance of these practices.

Affirmation Action, handicap rights, homeless programs, etc., are our human attempt to reverse the digression of humanity. You seem to want this madness to continue.

"Yes RACISM- YOURS. You HATE WHITES. Just admit it and get it off your chest."

To fight against racist oppression, is "racism"? Are you really trying to make that case? YOU admit it, you HATE HUMANITY! Everyone here is your oyster...

"This is why you need to rely on Institutionalized Racism that is Affirmative Action- you apparently are unable to grasp REAL HISTORY and therefore you have failed, probably all of your life, but, Blaming Whitey won't change anything for you."

Hilarious! You claim "whites rule the world"...admitting you are in charge of all this madness! "Blaming Whitey" and asking "Whitey" to help change for the better...is two vastly different things. Clearly, it folks like you who are destroying this world.

"Explain the Tribal warfare that occurs daily in Africa."

Explain gang warfare in American streets daily?

"Explain the Black on Black murder rate in the U.S.?"

Explain White Collar crime, that rips off BILLIONS from you! Are you trying to justify something? I'm really not getting why you're using this as an excuse? I thought you think "whites were superior"...does your justifications prove that point? What kind of logic it this?

"You didn't explain why Whites are in Florida, despite the 30th Parallel Myth you've been spouting."

In one word, "Technology"! Air conditioned apartments, cars, restaurants, hospitals, etc. without it, pow, it's over! Don't get it twisted!

After all is said and done...it still doesn't answer why YOU do it? And "everybody else does it" IS NOT an intelligent or acceptable answer...by doing so you only contribute to the madness.

What am I thinking? I'm here debating societal ills with what appears to be a person with sociopathic tendencies! Please forgive me...it's like deja vu, I've had this same argument at least 100 times...the same arguments, the same denial, the same lack of self reflection, the same lack of remorse.

I'm sorry, I can't go on with this one..."tracking off"!

Ja Wei,...

Playtoe,

Let's make this simple. Europeans didn't like going to Africa. It was hot, it was dusty, full of strange disease that could kill off the crew on a passing ship. Granted in time Europeans decided it best to carve up the continent for its resources and imperial prestige. But during the height of the "slave trade"(I designation I am applying to the "triangle trade" of the late seventieth-early eighteenth centuries) most Europeans didn't want to venture into Africa.

While "whites indiscriminately raiding villages" makes a nice sound bite, but for a large part isn't true. Because just like today Africa then was a place of constant warfare(just like the rest of the world) and following centuries...millennium of standard practices in warfare, the winner took the losers as slaves(if you want to continue with your BS about slaves coming into existence in the Imperial Period I can list examples of societies that prospered on the backs of their slaves. The most notable I find are the Spartans who enslaved the much larger Helots and the ROMANS!!!!!).

I am going to digress for a moment to share an interesting tid bit about the Helots and their Spartan masters. To complete the mandatory training that every male Spartan went through, the candidate had to kill a specific male Helot. If the Spartan was caught in the act he was punished...and not for killing the man, but for getting caught.

Ok back on topic...Well the winning Africans knew they could expand their kingdoms with the aid of European heavy artillery and muskets(even the older obsolete models the Europeans sold them). So they traded slaves for weapons, kinda like Burma today...but that's another story.

And to the larger topic, giving a man a job because he's black doesn't reverse racism, it doesn't fight it, it doesn't help stop discrimination. It just reinforces for everyone that yes he is indeed black and if you'll can't get beyond that...well then this country is fuc*ed. Because a man is a man only when he stands up for himself and doesn't hide behind a convenient label.

Yes RACISM- YOURS. You HATE WHITES. Just admit it and get it off your chest

I said I did not. You can not call someone a racist here. I am going to report you and hope you get banned for good this time. Goodbye. I don't think anyone can have an intelligent conversation with someone like you.

Garrison...you're hilarous!

We can buy white, hispanic, asian, black female slaves just about anywhere.

Really? Where is it legal, outside of Africa & Asia?

Slavery in Africa is a VERY tough practice to end, but for the most part it is never "legal", it's just not made "illegal" and there's a difference.

boys, if that's your preference

Someone like yourself, that claims to know about African culture can surely tell us how older men buggering young boys is a favorite African pastime..

Haha...guess who they got THAT from! What is a "bed warmer"?

An active African Slave trade and cultural homosexuality/pederasty...that's a lot to be proud of, funny they skip those facts during Black History Month.

Haha, again...we learn it all. That term for "lesbians" in Africa, the "Grinder", is equal to any derogatory english term for gays. A "grinder" is a shameful term for lesbian, implying that's "all they can do", and cannot bring forth fruit. Just because they had a term for lesbians, you're trying to spin it as a cultural norm. Please explain why Europeans do it? Or, would you say the African's started homosexuality to in Europe? My goodness, you keep that up, I'm gonna have to start saying Africans "rule the world"!

thinking aloud

"Let's make this simple. Europeans didn't like going to Africa. It was hot, it was dusty, full of strange disease that could kill off the crew on a passing ship. Granted in time Europeans decided it best to carve up the continent for its resources and imperial prestige."

Haha...yea, just "passing by" Africa could kill ya! LOL!

"While "whites indiscriminately raiding villages" makes a nice sound bite, but for a large part isn't true. Because just like today Africa then was a place of constant warfare(just like the rest of the world)"

Want a fairy tale! You might want to read "Before the Mayflower", Lerone Bennett. Africa was hardly a place a constant warfare, unless you're talking about the Arab Muslim conflicts in the north. The peace that reigned in West Africa, made it easy pickings for Europeans.

"millennium of standard practices in warfare, the winner took the losers as slaves(if you want to continue with your BS about slaves coming into existence in the Imperial Period I can list examples of societies that prospered on the backs of their slaves. The most notable I find are the Spartans who enslaved the much larger Helots and the ROMANS!!!!!).."

Exactly what I said! And you can take that right on back to Indo Europeans in 1,000 B.C.

"Ok back on topic...Well the winning Africans knew they could expand their kingdoms with the aid of European heavy artillery and muskets(even the older obsolete models the Europeans sold them). So they traded slaves for weapons,"

Yes, and that's when things REALLY got out of hand! African warfare, prior to Europeans, really didn't produce a whole lot of dead...but after they got some "guns"...WHOA!

When you can stop trying to analyze other people and cultures from YOUR perspective and start reflecting on YOUR OWN behavior...then maybe the world we start to get better, instead of worse. Look at the Native Americans, predominately alchoholics. Black urbanites, on drugs and alcohol. Africans carrying YOUR guns, killing each other. Pakistan, N. Korea, Israel, Russia, ALL with Nuclear bombs ready to blow everybody up...who invented them?

When you stop spreading the means of self destruction, maybe we'll stop self destructing! Ever stop to think about it that way?

I don't think you can have an intelligent conversation without injecting your blatant anti-White hatreds.

That is all you can say and that is really sad but you can't call me a racist. It is against the CoH. Maybe if you actually had a valid point, you could debate why affirmative action was wrong instead of crying out "racism" whenever someone like me supports it. Where are the mods when you need them?

Garrison...hold it!

First if you say Polka is "worthy of banning" for saying certain hateful things about whites...and then you go and say, "As long as we're talking about CULTURAL HOMOSEXUALITY and buggering boys, you're right. Even Barack is on the D.L.!

Barack Obama "is on the D.L."? Hilarious!

"I don't think anyone can have an intelligent conversation with someone like you"

I think you prove the above statement true...I don't think anyone can have an intelligent conversation with someone like you either.

We're way off topic. Furthermore, I think we're done discussing Affirmative Action anyway...I hope you had fun, Garrison. I know you've made me laugh a FEW times!

My Valid Point: Affirmative Action discriminates against White Males and is unConstitutional. Period.

Well, my point is that Affirmative Action advances the groups that the white males have been oppressing for hundreds of years. When whites and non-whites are finally equal, Affirmative Action will no longer be needed.

Don't try to hide behind the CoH after you've been spreading HATRED OF WHITES in multiple posts.

I have not been stating anything racist. I am stating ideas that the races should be equal and Affirmative Action works to right the wrongs that the whites have inflicted upon minorities.

Your point is RACIST.

No it isn't. Removing Affirmative Action was racist.

Without "winners" and losers" everybody is a loser

No, everybody wins...except the fascists of the world.

you want payback from Whites like a NAZIs wanted payback from the Jews.

Another Nazi comparison, Garrison? Reported for inflammatory content. You can not say comments like those on this website.

Are you that thin skinned Polka14? He didn't call you a Nazi. I don't see the COH violation. When is using a reference to actual historical events a COH violation?

Garrison is ripping you a new one in the debate and you need a "call a friend" or in this case hope Tyler will bail you out of this discussion.

Garrison is ripping you a new one in the debate and you need a "call a friend" or in this case hope Tyler will bail you out of this discussion.

Garrison has only called me a racist in this discussion. I have said nothing racist yet and calling someone a racist is against the CoH. Every time I have tried to defend Affirmative Action, Garrison says "You're a racist!". He has no case and will not debate the merits of Affirmative Action or try to understand why Affirmative Action was needed in the past and why it will be needed in the future. Responding to his inflammatory speech is hardly a "debate".

I bet you look at White-folk all day long, maybe at your State or City job, smile at them, and all the while think of how you HATE them and want to pay them back for something you've never experienced, except in your racist fantasies. Scary.

This kind of speech is UNACCEPTABLE!

Every time I have tried to defend Affirmative Action, Garrison says "You're a racist!".

The whites ....are too selfish to understand.

Typical whites want to dominate their fellow citizens.

a more enlightened society that would not be poisoned with the influence of the whites

The first statement was written to describe the concept that the whites do not like programs that can help minorities gain progress and success that they have been denied for many many years.

The second statement was taken out of context. I was talking against the whites that oppose Affirmative Action for racial reasons.

The third statement was written to describe my feelings about slavery and its influence. The statement essentially said that non-whites would be more advanced and liberated without the unjust influence of white power and imperialism of the Sixteenth and Seventeenth centuries; unjust influence that lead to slavery and then oppression.

I spoke with no racism in my words. You see racism because you do not support the advancement of minorities that Affirmative Action promises. It doesn't matter though. Calling someone a racist is against the CoH.

They ALL EXPRESS CLEARLY YOUR HATRED OF WHITES.

No, they don't. READ THEM AGAIN.

Prohibited Conduct

The following non-exhaustive list describes the kinds of illegal or harmful conduct that are prohibited on our Site. You agree not to: upload, post or otherwise transmit any User Content that:

* ... hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable

Good think I did not write anything hateful or objectionable. You simply don't like anything said in support of Affirmative Action.

Can you please read 5.128 again? I clearly explain the intent of those messages that you falsely accuse of racism. Once again, there is no racism in my messages.

Play-Are you really trying to blame "whites" for all the evil in this world? Seriously, and you wonder why people think what you believe is just annoying. Though if you really want someone to blame for drugs, alcohol, and guns you have to blame the Egyptians/Chinese, Egyptians, and Chinese respectively for those problems.

Polka-He qouted you as saying a typical white person. If he had said a typical black person does (insert behavior here), you would have called him a racist. Because shocker both remarks are racist. When you group all of an ethnic group and apply a sterotype you're being racist.

And Affirmative Action is still a law that promotes racial profiling and inequality.

If he had said a typical black person does (insert behavior here), you would have called him a racist.

I don't think so. That would have been in violation of the CoH. I would probably be banned for it.

And Affirmative Action is still a law that promotes racial profiling and inequality.

I don't believe that. I think Affirmative Action promotes equality between the races by giving necessary advancement to a historically disadvantaged group of Americans.

Polka...let me make this simple.

If you call a duck a duck, its not a CoH violation. Political Correctness is a flimsy shield and on here it doesn't work.

And Yes AA does promote racial profiling(its expressed purpose is to promote certain racial groups, to do so it can only act if someone is of a racial group...profiling them as a member of that group) and inequality(by giving advantage to one group over the other...no matter their history...is promoting something that is unequal).

So unless you can prove the law is only applicable to certain racial groups(therefore targeting them) and one that promotes and inequality. Well that it does both...which in typical terms would make AA one of the worst pieces of legislation in American history. A blatant attempt at racial politics...and so on and so forth.

thinking aloud, I am actually glad that someone is willing to actually debate the topic instead of yelling "racist" one thousand times.

Anyway, you are stating that a group should not be aided because of history, correct? What about the Jews? They were given a new nation in the middle east because of the holocaust. That was only recent history. Why shouldn't minorities be given reasonable advancement as compensation for past discrimination and other illegal acts against their races? I don't think that Affirmative Action works to target the whites; it works to aid minorities. Garrison is confused on the subject. It is not about advantage, it is about fair and just compensation for inequalities suffered over many years.

AFFIRMATIVE ACTION EXCLUDES WHITE MALES therefore it is unConstitutional.

If it did not exclude white males, it would not help minorities. That is the true purpose of affirmative action. No racism implied here. Only JUSTICE.

You want justice, EARN IT like a White Man

White men didn't earn it. They simply seized it from others. It is too late to reverse the injustice of it though; Affirmative Action existed to create balance with minorities and the whites that have obtained unfair advantage due to the many discrimination they created over many years.

Polka-You have grossly simplified the events that lead up to the foundation of Israel. There were already a good number of Jewish persons living in the region before the British withdrew from their mandate. And in much the same way British India was split into the Pakistans and India based on religion so was the region.

Even then the Isrealis earned their nation in rivers of blood, as they beat back a combination of Arab armies. Nothing is ever given in this world, things can only be earned.

AA tries to change that rule, to the detriment of all. Something given has no value, and if your entire life is based around something(your career) that has no value well than what does that say about your life?

And none of this changes the fact that AA promotes inequality, a racist belief that certain peoples cannot get ahead without being given everything, and of course racial profiling.

And none of this changes the fact that AA promotes inequality, a racist belief that certain peoples cannot get ahead without being given everything, and of course racial profiling.

This law helps minorities but it helps them in a direct manner by giving them opportunity. Would minorities be receiving the same level of opportunities without Affirmative Action? Would it truly be equal?

More RACIST HATRED.

It is not racist. Read about the history of discrimination and white institutional racism.

Can it be truly equal when unqualified minorities are given opportunities they haven't earned?

YES. Minorities should be given EQUAL opportunity to gain employment as the whites.

THEY STILL CAN NOT COMPETE WITH THE MORE QUALIFIED WHITE MEN YOU WANT TO PUNISH!

Whites and minorities have equal potential to succeed in this nation so there is some other reason why minorities can not "compete" with the whites. I will probably always believe that minorities should be supported and aided by the government so they can succeed. Unless the races are succeeding equally, there is no equality.

Must be that MATH & SCIENCE are Racist.

Actually, it would be white institutional racism.

Ok what those that defend AA often gloss over is the fact that minorities are not being given equal opportunity, there are set numbers that must be recruited. So sometimes a company or school does something just to make up numbers. Which continues policies of racial profiling and inequality. Just face it, the law is bad...the reasoning behind it might be of the best, intention wise. But as we all know the road to hell is paved in good intentions.

11 test

Pariah! Earth Destroyers! We shall annihilate you!!!!!!

Duh.

I'm with UnAm here...this is a 'state-level' decision...Making it out to be a SCOTUS decision is incorrect...It can still go to SCOTUS...

He didn't say SCOTUS. He said Supreme Court of California. The highest court in the State.

Look at his/her comments again SR...and those on this article...everyone is acting like it is a SCOTUS decision...

This is a STATE supreme court, not THE Supreme Court...This is a 'state issue' concerning a specific ban....not a national issue...It has been blown out of proportion...you don't believe me, just read the comments on here...

dcstone01 -- If I might add, the court's decision CLEARLY states,that in effect racial preferences AREconstitutional- but only in exceptional circumstances! I find this seed to be dishonest and misleading, I think on that basis it should be taken down.

This is a STATE supreme court, not THE Supreme Court...This is a 'state issue' concerning a specific ban....not a national issue...It has been blown out of proportion...you don't believe me, just read the comments on here.

Yes. Anyone who read the seed easily knows that. Those who don't obviously did not read the seed or just idiots. Lol.

Having special laws and rules based on race and gender... is just wrong.

don't waste your breath Jai. These folks think as you say, affirmative action is to put blacks ahead of the poor victim, the white male. You are right in that women benefit one hell of a lot from AA but you have those that want to keep them in their place too.

.

Let's discriminate against you

This says a lot about your point of view. You think Affirmative Action is discrimination against everyone but its only purpose is to aid in racial equality.

No it doesn't, equality is earned not given.

I believe in that but that is not how the real world works right now. Affirmative Action is needed to help in the quest for equality because it forces employers to consider those of other races/genders in their workplace. I know you probably would disagree but many minorities are overlooked because of race and whites continue to benefit from race and white privilege.

Black President...what did you miss?

Simply having a black president doesn't dismiss the fact that minorities still have a difficult time finding employment and making equal pay. This nation has to make significantly more progress before ideas like Affirmative Action are no longer needed.

Affirmative Action is discrimination against White Men. Not everyone, White Men.

Affirmative Action is necessary to fight against discrimination caused by White Men. It is necessary for equality.

Really, so you're saying obama and oprah were given hand-outs to get where they were, or did they earn it?

They earned it. The concept of earning success is not in question; the question revolves around people not acknowledging the potential and abilities of minorities. Affirmative Action was a force of good that tried to make equality into law through direct action.

Apparently minorities aren't performing to the standard to earn an equal pay. Who's fault is that?

They are but many whites will not give minorities a chance. Affirmative Action existed to force employers to give that important chance to those that were most vulnerable to discrimination.

It never will while people like you want "forced equality".

very karl marx...he's the one with the manifesto, not the harp.

Some people need to be forced to allow equality.

They are but many whites will not give minorities a chance

That's B.S. Only a racist might, but that isn't the majority of America today.

Wrong. obama is an Affirmative Actionbenficiary.

You would dare call me a racist after typing this? Terrible.

I love that you're not ashamed of your personal hatreds.

It is not hatred. It is the truth. Many minorities are denied equal rights. Elimination of Affirmative Action will push the nation in the wrong direction.

That's right Komrade! No if only the angy Blacks, and the Militant lesbians and the Latina Separatists could figure out how to make Whitey pay first!

It is not about forcing whites to pay. It is about equality. Equality that allows a minority to have the same chance to being hired as a white man.

That's BS Polka

I attend the University of Michigan and they force diversity down our throats. Did you know Asian students get turned down for less qualified Black students in the name of diversity and affirmative action. Now what does it matter if a student is black white yellow brown green or purple? Shouldn't it be the best student gets in no matter what?

I also went to a top 30 public high school in America (when I graduated it was top 15) with a 3.78 GPA 29 ACT and 1960 SAT. There were two black students who had a lower GPA, ACT and SAT scores and they got full rides, FULL RIDES, to UPenn and Columbia, two Ivy League universities? Care to place a bet why? I had white friends apply to both with better GPA, ACT, and SAT scores and they weren't even waitlisted.

Look I am American with Indian (like from India not Native American) heritage. I want to know that I got into the University and afterwards got a job because I was the best candidate/applicant for it not because my skin was colored and they had to fill some sort of quota...

Garrison, don't you think the white man has whined enough? If he has not gotten to his place of power within the last 200 years, maybe he needs to just step aside. Your comments insinutate that you feel blacks get to positions only through aa. It is ignorant and insulting. Women also benefit from aa as white males have held dominant positions in areas where it has been difficult for women to gain a foothold. Sorry my friend but there has been a power shift.

Mitesh, did you look at the academic records of all students to make such an accusation? How did you get to see such info? You must have an in. You know what, maybe applications should stop asking race of its applicants. That might help, don't you think? A lot of times you folks assume a black or other minority got to where they are thru loopholes or aa. I have personally had that happen and it is annoying and ignorant. If these Asian students or you knew this for a fact perhaps you should have done something about it instead of later bitchin about it on the vine. For all of you bitchin about aa, why don't you take to the streets, write your congressman, start a scholarship for whites only, whatever.

Sorry my friend but there has been a power shift.

Many whites have a problem with equality. They are not accepting of the idea that they should share power and influence with minorities. They want to eliminate Affirmative Action so they can continue to discriminate against the minority. Any other response that tries to indicate that Affirmative Action is too potent is a lie. Once again, the whites seem to truly hate any advancement from minorities, even small ones that stem from programs like Affirmative Action.

Wow ming do you think that people won't tell you their academic information if they asked? People are more than willing to brag about what they got to get in and even if they do exaggerate, I still know of people who got rejected with better credentials.

It is also a well known fact that University of Michigan used a points system until a couple years ago to determine admissions. Did you know "under represented" minorities such as blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans got 20 points while a perfect SAT score only gave you 12 points (100 points is guaranteed admission)? You tell me what's more important. And what about Asian Americans? Last I checked there are less Americans of Asian heritage than either Americans of African or Hispanic heritage. And while officially it has stopped, only someone with his head all the way up his-you-know-what would think that the practice isn't continued.

I am all up for race being eliminated from being asked but then when less blacks and Hispanics get admitted to top level universities because their scores and credentials aren't as good, don't come crying racism to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratz_v._Bollinger

I also know of universities that admit people for things other than grades or SAT's. I still stand by what I said earlier. Folks can tell you anything but it does not mean it is true. You need to take your gripe up with the govt. These schools get so much funding for a certain percentage of minorities. Inequities in education go way back. I did not see anybody like you bitching when minorities were not allowed in certain schools or when they had inferior educational materials. I will say that aa may not be needed as it was before but I am sure there are a lot of instances where kids are getting substandard education through no fault of their own. Instead of folks bitching about issues such as aa or who is getting more, perhaps energy should be put into quality education and schools for all. That is another rant for a different day. d You can bitch about it all including organizations that want a certain percentage of women as well as minorities. Race should not be asked on any form including the census in my opinion.

I should hide the truth for you? nope

Your words do not speak the truth. You speak as if you believe that a minority can never be equal to a white man. You are wrong. Obama and other minorities are elected and chosen for office because they are the best candidates.

yes, by other minorities.

no, by arrogant whites that want A.A to be eliminated.

I think the Black man has whined enough.

They have a right to speak out against racism and inequality. A.A. was a weapon against those things. Now minorities do not have the government on their side anymore; the whites should be complaining about it but they are not.

Superior performance makes the difference

Woman are normally superior but they were never given the chance and many females may be denied their rightful opportunity without A.A.

Whites are the only people interested in equality

They were the ones that created the inequality; it is their responsibility to end it.

It should be unfair for the government to give all or a disproportionate amount of contracts to whites only...that's discrimination and unequal!

It took one minority judge to see the truth...not one white judge could admit it! Talking about playing politics!

You're right about that. Affirmative Action is still necessary in this nation for the purposes of equality.

Are you against equality, Garrison?

True equality can only exist when special interest laws and programs based solely on race and race alone and including gender go away. Until then.. there is no equality. It's a double standard.

I don't know where this communist nonsense is coming from but it has nothing to do with my posts. Affirmative Action was a good thing that helped minorities that may have been rejected by white institutional racism find work and a good place in society. Something has to fight back against what the whites have established in our society. Something has to fight in the interest of justice.

Something has to fight in the interest of justice.

How about equality and the rule of law?

How about equality and the rule of law?

Affirmative Action fought for those ideals too. Do you think the law was satisfied when minorities were dismissed in favor of white men?

Affirmative Action was a good thing...

Key word. "WAS" AKA past tense. Not anymore.

I used past tense because it was banned in California. It is no longer in effect.

Republicans are against equality and whites are comfortable being the dominant group in society. Elimination of Affirmative Action will not help the whites in any way. They hurt themselves and society as a whole.

They should be, it's their society.

That kind of thinking lead to discrimination. Our society belongs to everyone, not simply one group.

Really? After nearly hal-a-century, all finally White Men being judged for their merits, instead of being held back because of their skin color won't help them?

You forget that minorities were held back for centuries because of their skin color. A.A. existed to help alleviate those problems and promote a sense of equality with the former dominant group. Minorities needed help because the whites were unwilling to change on their own.

when I am a walkin'... and I am so strung out,...

Soval-

The only racists in this country are the ones who accept mediocrity and failure based on skin color. Nobody wants a hand out. Liberals force the issue driving what would be normal able bodied people into servitude through the state. You want circus animals because they entertain you and you can control them. Dream on friend. That's not what this country is about. Your day will come the day you realize that racism doesn't exist in Conservatism. I don't care what color you are you had better be able to pull your weight to the best of your ability. No more free passes.

lol

It's not really funny when you think about it.

Old farts? I'm 26. Lets play a game. Take your age and divide it by my age. What do you get?

No, this is only a state court decision on a 'state' ban that was voted on...this is NOT concerning the national level AA...

Still a big deal. Liberal California surprises me again. They actually did something right for once.

Liberal California surprises me again. They actually did something right for once.

California doesn't always do the right thing. Affirmative Action needs to be reinstated in this state. The whites simply do not like the idea that some laws exist to benefit minorities and not simply them.

No people want equality and laws that benefit everyone.. not just one race or another. Not companies having to hire based on quotas and statistics. I've worked in many companies it was like this.. hiring someone "just because they fell into so and so category" even though more qualified people had been turned down. That's just bull@!$%#.

Without Affirmative Action, some people would be more equal then others. I will say this again, Minorities need legal assistance so they can overcome centuries of white male dominance. Without help, true equality may never exist.

"hiring someone "just because they fell into so and so category" even though more qualified people had been turned down."

That's a myth! What constitutes "more qualified"? Most jobs require initial "training"...I know of few jobs that a person can walk into on day one and be up to speed and productive. Being "qualified"...what does that actually mean to you?

1) Having previous experience? Does that mean a person can do a "better" job, than someone new to that job that has more natural talent can do, with training?

2) Having a degree, though unrelated to the job?

3) Better "grades" in school? (By that criteria, Obama SHOULD be "better" than Bush!...but I guess that's true already...huummmm, I digress)

"More qualified" is a myth...and really has nothing to do with Affirmative Action. Naturally, those who have always had that type of job are going to be "perceived" as "more qualified", but that's the purpose of giving those previously denied the opportunity a chance.

You had me Playtoe until ...

3) Better "grades" in school? (By that criteria, Obama SHOULD be "better" than Bush!...but I guess that's true already...huummmm, I digress)

You nor I know what Obamas grades were... and your normally factual (smiles)! And just how is it that you know GWB's grades? Was it because he RELEASED THEM?

But since you have nothing to compare them to with President Obama...Because for some reason he has refused to release his, has he not? Doesn't it even a little bit make you question WHY? I mean just a little bit?

Why all the damn drama...which causes discussions like this over his grades which escalates to race B.S.game. He (President Obama) could stop all of this, could he not? With just one sentence, release my grades...yet he does not and allows this B.S. to continue! WHY?

It breeds conspiracy theory, which does not have to be... Why does he allow this issue to separated us, when he could put this Crap to rest ,so easily! And unite us!

We (You and I) have interacted before so I am looking for your thoughts in an honest way!

Jim44

"You nor I know what Obamas grades were... and your normally factual (smiles)! And just how is it that you know GWB's grades? Was it because he RELEASED THEM?"

No, Obama, nor the school has released them, but I think it's safe to assume he wasn't and C/D undergrad student considering he graduated Harvard Law "magna cum laude"! Maybe a B/C student, but surely not a C/D student! But, we haven't seen the grades...

"Mr. Miller acknowledged that Mr. Obama displayed academic achievement at Harvard, where he graduated magna cum laude and led the Harvard Law Review."

Here's a pretty good article, however, on this whole matter...the point of which is that no one really made a huge issue about our president's academic achievements until Obama came!

http://www.nysun.com/new-york/obamas-years-at-columbia-are-a-mystery/85015/

Personally, I don't think Obama needs to show his grades and in which classes he excelled or not for the type of reasons they are being requested! I'm sure that if he has ANY failings, even if its "gym class" THAT will become the focus!

I, personally, think he's going to make a fool of "yall"...he'll make you wait and wait and get you all hyped about it...and then POW 'In Your FACE" and make you all an irrelevant laughingstock! Remember, he DID graduate Harvard Law "magna cum laude"! And I don't think people all of a sudden get "intelligent". Furthermore, students do have periods where they don't focus as much as others....which doesn't mean they aren't capable.

Bottomline, is Obama is quite capable...and you may not get to know about his years at Columbia, but this should suffice:

"An article in a Columbia University publication, Columbia College Today, reported that Mr. Obama has portrayed Columbia as a period of buckling down following a troubled adolescence. He did not socialize much, he has said, instead spending a lot of time in the library, "like a monk." He has also stated that he was involved to some extent with the Black Students Organization.

Federal law limits the information that Columbia can release about Mr. Obama's time there."

If you can't relate to a person who came from a "trouble youth" started to "buckle down" upon entered undergrad college...then fine. But, when you see that person excel during grad school and attain "magna cum laude"...you KNOW you got a pretty smart person! If you have other standards you think are more telling, I'd like to know them...I'm sure we'd all like to know!

Jim...personally, I think he probably has took some "black studies" or "poli-sci" classes that those who think he's a "socialist/Marxist" might use against him. I'm sure he never thought he'd be president then, but I know that WHATEVER he took got him there!

Inspite of the nit-picking that may go on about his clases, if ever revealed, I would personally look to his course work for an example and inspiration of the type of courses students should consider when seeking high office in America. To scandalize Obama for his course selection, while realizing that he became POTUS, is woefully disrespectful, wrong and misguided.

I know I seem to be defending him, before it's even proven necessary...but knowing the way he's been scrutinized already I base my current position on the audience and not so much Obama.